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Lithit

Raid and Dungeon Values

15 posts in this topic

Hello Wargate!

 

Today there was a discussion of the servers Discord regarding values of raid and 5 man content, and that some of these values might be a little wrong compared to what they are supposed to be, such as Gruul with 3,4 million HP that was already killed earlier this week. The staff expressed that they are of course willing to improve and reevaluate these values, but lacked the evidence to do it. Due to this, we agreed to create a topic here in order to find/discuss what the values of the content should be in dungeons, heroics, raids and etc. to get as accurate values as possible.

 

I think we can all agree that we would like to have a enjoyable but challenging T4-T5 experience on the server. Yes, its old content and tactics are already known, but with the right values from pre-nerf it might still be a challenge to most people, so lets try to recreate that. 

 

So if you have any evidence, experience or whatever that could indicate what the values might have been from any TBC PvE content back then, please post it in this thread, as well as any other comments on the topic of course.

 

Thanks!

 

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I like this thread, good job researching the values. Let's see what the response is :)

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I haven't had time to research at all yet, but I'd like to add that we're running 2.4.3 talents and stuff which is universally agreed to be a DPS increase. Hence, I think it is wise to err to the higher side of boss HP to adjust for that.

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You also can't stack elixir buffs which more or less cancels on-average stronger classes (in most cases more than that, although some specs like prot pallies received fairly extreme buffs). Supposing perfectly working mechanics, the greatest difference to TBC retail comes from far greater theorycrafting knowledge (and more skilled players: at this point a lot of people have played WoW for longer than the total number of hours it had been online in 2007 so this is fully expected).

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Posted (edited)

I'd like to see some of these changes implemented to normal dungeons.
So far I've noticed that mobs in OHF, Sethekk, Ramparts do funny dmg, healer barely has to do anything, can just press renew or rejuv and healing is done. I think this might be the case for most if not all normal dungeons.

Edited by Vanset
typo

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Posted (edited)

World of Warcraft Bestiary has values that can be presumed exactly correct (for 90%+ of the mobs) for normals. Spell values are from WDB so unless there's a mixup with wrong spells being used, they're likely correct to begin with: https://github.com/Schaka/TBC-research/issues/21

Edited by KimmoKM

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Have you guys noticed any dmg changes on normal dungeons like yesterday?
I'm NOT sure but I think mobs/bosses do more dmg compared to like two days ago.

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6 hours ago, Vanset said:

Have you guys noticed any dmg changes on normal dungeons like yesterday?
I'm NOT sure but I think mobs/bosses do more dmg compared to like two days ago.

Yes, mobs hit x2 or even x3 harder now, trash usually do 300-600 dmg, harder mobs 700-1k, bosses 1-2k. Even on OHF heroic mode, bosses hit me for 2k (epoch hunter) to 4,5k (first boss), trash mobs for like 1k-1,5k, archers multishot for 2-2,5k. Dunno how it looks like in Karazhan or GL, but i think dmg increased significantly too. It's more challenging right now, you have to bring cc (or you're pala tank) to clear smoothly an instance, so mages and locks should find easier an instance group.

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yep! Rogue is finlly very required :D 

 

Sap, blind, gouge... - temporary CC

Stun after Stun -> way easier to heal Tank, and hold group alive. Love it!

 

but You have exaggerated with this Revered reputation required to get into HC... that part sux.

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Posted (edited)

While doing Karazhan yesterday, it seemed to us some mobs have been nerfed. At this point our tank was in mostly epics as opposed to group quest gear so it's natural that damage feels easier to heal but for some mobs absolute values also seemed quite a bit lower. For example, Valets, a notoriously hard-hitting mob, whereas they used to hit tanks for 6k+ mitigated, didn't seem to hit for much damage at all (I believe I saw damage values no higher than 2k). Armour mitigation has certainly increased (from about 50% mitigation to 60%) but not nearly to this extent. My feeling is trash was nerfed across the board and while many bosses felt same as before (such as Nightbane), some others like Moroes felt trivial in comparison to the way they were before.

 

There are mobs the nerfing of which I would not lament (for example, the ethereals before Chess are far more difficult to pull individually than they should be due to the way they patrol, making that area just bullshit to clear) but from where I stand the apparent nerfs weren't necessary, and while thus far I'm just going with gut feeling rather than actually having gone through combat logs to see if damage was definitely reduced, during my last Kara run I was surprised and disappointed to discover it felt much easier than before and I don't think better gear is enough to explain the difference.

 

Has anyone else noticed Kara being nerfed or am I just imagining things? And supposing it has been nerfed, what do you guys think about the whole issue?

Edited by KimmoKM

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, KimmoKM said:

While doing Karazhan yesterday, it seemed to us some mobs have been nerfed. At this point our tank was in mostly epics as opposed to group quest gear so it's natural that damage feels easier to heal but for some mobs absolute values also seemed quite a bit lower. For example, Valets, a notoriously hard-hitting mob, whereas they used to hit tanks for 6k+ mitigated, didn't seem to hit for much damage at all (I believe I saw damage values no higher than 2k). Armour mitigation has certainly increased (from about 50% mitigation to 60%) but not nearly to this extent. My feeling is trash was nerfed across the board and while many bosses felt same as before (such as Nightbane), some others like Moroes felt trivial in comparison to the way they were before.

 

There are mobs the nerfing of which I would not lament (for example, the ethereals before Chess are far more difficult to pull individually than they should be due to the way they patrol, making that area just bullshit to clear) but from where I stand the apparent nerfs weren't necessary, and while thus far I'm just going with gut feeling rather than actually having gone through combat logs to see if damage was definitely reduced, during my last Kara run I was surprised and disappointed to discover it felt much easier than before and I don't think better gear is enough to explain the difference.

 

Has anyone else noticed Kara being nerfed or am I just imagining things? And supposing it has been nerfed, what do you guys think about the whole issue?

I was wondering about this, too. The first time I did Karazhan on the server, I as the tank were getting hit for around 7k non crit by the Valets. By now I've gained about 9% more mitigation from armour and possibly some block value, but the Valets suddenly don't seem to reach even 3k. These are not the only mobs that seem to hit far less either, but as Ketjuhiili mentioned, most bosses seem to have remained as they were before.

 

Was there a stealth nerf to Karazhan trash damage?

Edited by Kuvis

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There is a problem with Nightbane using Bellowing Roar before he lands in the flight phase, leading to almost guaranteed having a healer get popped unless you plan EXACTLY for it (For example, having an Md up which is standard, + BoPing the aggro'd healer before landing AND hoping your tank can get aggro before it's down.

We thought it was a bug at first, but it happens every single flight phase, it makes the encounter much less fun as it's not supposed to be that way.

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2.1.0 patch featured these changes (undocumented changes listed in Wowwiki): Nightbane was significantly retuned with no official patch note; Rain of Bones no longer follows targets, Smoking Blast damage greatly reduced, Distracting Ash completely changed, no longer able to fear during landing, several bugs fixed.

 

You can also see immediate fear taking place in videos prior to that, such as this one.

 

I don't think the issue is with fear per se but threat not being reset as Nightbane lands. Even if you stop healing the raid instead of topping everyone off before landing, healers are inevitably going to have thousands of threat from healing the air phase damage, more than the threat granted by full misdirect+shield slam. So yeah, while there's a number of tactics to at least try to work around that (most of them being unreliable: most groups don't have access to double misdirects or anything of the sort), it's still pretty much bullshit.

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Immediate fear is fine, fearing whilst still flying is not.

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